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jumper

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
51
I just finished wiring my garage for EVs. I installed three outlets, one at the front of the car, one at the left side rear, and one outside for when the car's not parked inside. I also installed a second utility electricity meter; its one that is dedicated by utility regulation to EV use. My utility, PG&E, here in northern California, has an EV rate (EV-B) for EV-charging-only second meters. This rate is about one-third the cost of my normal marginal electric rate. I can now charge my car at about $0.11USD per kWh.

The project cost me about $950USD for the parts and local permits to install the infrastructure. So, I'll break even after about 680 charges at 7 kWh/charge. OK, I thought I'd be in this for about half this cost, and, I did all the work myself. I'll be ahead money-wise after about two years or so. But wait, there is a 30 percent federal income tax credit available for EV-infrastructure costs. That brings my breakeven down to 475 charges (but only if I can avoid the US' Alternative Minimum income Tax that negates this credit). So, somewhere between 1.5 and 2 years I should be whole on the infrastructure costs.

The alternatives to this effort were to continue charging at 120V for 7+ hours nightly at a rate more expensive than gasoline with no new infrastructure, or to add a 240V circuit to my existing panel for faster charging, but still more expensive than gasoline. In either case, I should have looked elsewhere for a car.

So, since I have a deposit in on a Tesla Model 3, and for future proofing, I chose to wire the garage with three 50A circuits off of a new 100A meter/panel using the 14-50 NEMA outlet devices required by Tesla and the 6-3 electric cable that will support these 50A devices and that includes a neutral wire.

Visually, the 14-50 "dryer/Tesla" outlet, and the 6-50 "Audi" outlet appear similar enough that the Audi 240V cable should plug right in to the 14-50 and just not connect to the neutral on the 14-50. Nope, pin spacing on the 6-50 and 14-50 are different. Did I check this BEFORE I installed this? Nope, again. I assumed based on visual layouts. Never assume.

To make this work I needed a 14-50P to a 6-50R adapter, or I'd have to replace all three outlets with ones that would not support the Tesla. Arrrgg. But, however, I have found the adapter!

If you have a Tesla in the garage along with your Audi, or just want to hijack your dryer plug, order this adapter cable http://www.hobartweldshop.com/adapt...mpion-elite-champion-10-000-welder-generator/from the good folks at Hobart Arc welders. They've got them now at $20USD plus shipping. This compares to three or more times that cost elsewhere.

If you're in northern California, consider PG&E's EV-B rate. You'll need a second meter tapped off the feeders ahead of your existing meter and your costs to do so may vary from mine. Otherwise, however, I don't see how at-home charging in NorCal makes any sense. That's fodder for another thread, however.
 
This is really good info, thanks for posting it. That's a good rate on your electricity, too.

I just finally put a 240v outlet in my garage, and can't believe I waited so long. I can generally get by during the week with my overnight charge (via 110v) but if I ran any other errands after work, I was getting into gas. Sometimes had the same happen on the weekend, running errands during the day, then out to dinner at night. Now, with the 2hr charging (or even less), I get by mainly on electricity.

Our electricity here is pretty cheap already (I have free weekends), but I may shop around and see what else is out there. Our electricity is deregulated so you can switch pretty often, but like anything else, you just need to find all the exclusions in the fine print.

BTW, I had an electrician quote me (with a straight face) $1500 to install the outlet. Our supply panel is on the outside wall of our garage, so the total run would be about 10 feet. I told him I'd think about it. ;) Then I found a contractor that did it for almost a tenth of that quote. Took him about 30 minutes.
 
I'm also in NorCal but on PGE's EV-6 rate schedule (an older plan that has peak/off-peak hours and tiered rates based on usage). The highest rate is $0.56/kWh during peak hours in the summer when you've exceeded 200% of the "baseline" usage. The baseline rate during peak hours is indeed $0.34/kWh. Fortunately, if can time your usage to off-peak hours, then it's $0.15/kWh. I'm staying on this plan as I have solar, so when the system is feeding electricity back into the grid during peak hours, I'm getting "credits" at the peak rate and then using it at night during off-peak hours at 1/2 the cost.

I may consider putting in the separate meter and getting the EV-B rate, though. I love my Etron (and might consider a Tesla 3 for DH in the future!) but neither of us are comfortable with electrical wiring so I imagine it would be far more expensive than $1,000 to put in a similar system to what Jumper did.
 
I'm on the E-6 rate too, but without solar.

My Off-Peak marginal rates are the 200% of baseline tier (US$0.368/kWh summer, and US$0.372/kWh winter).

I would never charge up on-peak, gas is much cheaper.

The EV-B rate on the other hand is US$0.118/kWh and US$0.120/kWh, summer and winter respectively, Off-peak.

So, yes, EV charging is now at about a third of my household marginal electric rate.
 
Yikes, I don't think I'll ever complain about our rates again...USD equivalent is $0.063/kWh!
 
srwhitney":2w7eij2c said:
Yikes, I don't think I'll ever complain about our rates again...USD equivalent is $0.063/kWh!

Yeah I'm curious about other jurisdictions rates the more I read.. here in Ontario I pay 0.08/kWh CAD off peak, 0.132 mid-peak, 0.18. on-peak, but we have a bunch of other fees tacked on. I'm wondering how that works out and compares around North America, but around here complaining about hydro prices is a regular passtime. We are government regulated on pricing.


I only charge off-peak, so including overhead of line loss charging the 8.8 kW battery my math was roughly $0.80. That gets me my 27km commute most of the time (except when its really cold). In my previous car I consistently got 7.6 L/100 km, with gas prices at about a buck per L (mind you that was regular) that's $2/trip.
So electric makes financial sense for me, even if I paid on-peak (I have a free charge arrangement at work :). Plus it's (more) green!


Ian
 
jumper: did you look into the Chargepoint charger rebate? http://info.chargepoint.com/CASubmeterP ... ation.html

I just read about the $400 rebate from Chargepoint to put in one of their chargers if your utility is participating in the promotion. After reading the fine print of the agreement that gets sent to PG&E (my NorCal electricity utility), it sounds like the Chargepoint charger itself is considered a "sub-meter" that will report your electricity usage to PGE and enable you to get the reduced EV-B rate for just your electric car during a one-year trial period. Does that sound right? Or did I miss the part where you have to put in a system like yours to get the $400 rebate.
 
smiles33":gr2q1u4t said:
jumper: did you look into the Chargepoint charger rebate? http://info.chargepoint.com/CASubmeterP ... ation.html

I just read about the $400 rebate from Chargepoint to put in one of their chargers if your utility is participating in the promotion. After reading the fine print of the agreement that gets sent to PG&E (my NorCal electricity utility), it sounds like the Chargepoint charger itself is considered a "sub-meter" that will report your electricity usage to PGE and enable you to get the reduced EV-B rate for just your electric car during a one-year trial period. Does that sound right? Or did I miss the part where you have to put in a system like yours to get the $400 rebate.

No, I didn't do this pilot. I started my second meter installation last fall. This pilot started in January. It looks like you can either acquire a qualified plug-in charger or have a licensed electrician provide you a hard-wired circuit (see tariff link below). (So, owner-builders need not apply, huh???)

The California Public Utilities Commission ordered this new pilot program for PG&E, SDG&E and SCE and it will last through April 2018. See PG&E's description https://pge.com/en_US/residential/s...es/electric/ev-submetering-pilot-program.page. Also check the CPUC's website here: http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/general.aspx?id=5938&cmsmode=preview

The metering vendor (there are three listed on the CPUC page in addition to chargepoint) sends your EV daily usage using your wifi network to PG&E and PG&E subtracts it from your household meter readings and bills out the EV charging at the EV-B rate. (That's the rate I have on my second meter). There is a 500 unit ceiling on the pilot for PG&E. At the end of the pilot, unless it is extended or made permanent, your billing will revert to the household rate.

I don't know what the charger costs, but you might want to jump on this (and maybe contact the other vendors to see how hungry they all are). One consideration: I installed a second meter for roughly $1K (doing it myself) and use the Audi charger that I got for free, and my system is permanent and won't expire with a pilot in 2018. You might get a quote from an electrician for a meter (and be sure to include the costs of a local electrical permit and a $125 charge for a meter from PG&E). There is a 60K cap on the number of EV-B services, so, check with PG&E on how that's coming.

Before doing anything, I suggest first calling PG&E at 800-743-5000 or email [email protected]. Make sure that the program works with your current electric rate, particularly if you're not on the the basic E-1 rate, and, note the NEM true-up provisions at that PG&E web page if you have solar. Also, if you're on special programs like Balanced Payment Plan you will need to get off it (and pay any balance) to enroll in the pilot (see Tariff link below).

PG&E may also have insights on what the plans are for when the pilot expires. They will have information about where they're sitting WRT the EV-B service numbers cap.

If you want to pursue a second meter, I'd be happy to share my experiences in more detail than found here.

In my opinion, I think a pseudo meter like found in this pilot program is the way of the future. Why install a whole second meter when the EV usage can be netted out of the household total? Separating out the EV load like this is easier, cheaper for the homeowner and the utility, and it would prevent people from using the separate EV meter for purposes other than EV charging.

One potential issue, though, is the fundamental requirement for "revenue quality metering." According to the pilot program's tariff, a +/- 1% meter error is assumed. Maybe that's why the pilot is limited to 500 customers.... That's a really small pilot for consumer facing pilot programs. The Tariff is worth reading: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_PEVSP_2.pdf

One final thought: Allowing specific loads like EVs to be separately metered (or netted out using an embedded "meter,") is a huge policy evolution. Think about the policy and rate-making implications of being able to pseudo meter specific loads, like air conditioning, pools, water heaters. Would we still need "Baseline" usage amounts? Why not an A/C rate, a pool pump rate? Hmmm.
 
Thanks for the thorough response, jumper. I am going in on the Chargepoint deal and just ordered mine. Yet I am hesitant about committing to the full 12 months. The issue is that as a solar panel owner, my electric car charging usage will now be billed separately, rather than deducted from the energy my solar array is generating. This means any excess energy is "sold" back to PGE for pennies, whereas the energy I use to charge is billed at the higher EV-B rate. I don't know how much, if any, excess energy we might generate if all the charging is deducted.

A Chargepoint 32 amp plug-in charger with 25' cord costs about $799. They offer a $400 rebate if you do the pilot, $200 up front and $200 after 12 months. I figure I'll sign up and there's no penalty for withdrawing before 12 months. It just means I won't get the second $200 payment. However, I'd still have the charger and users on Amazon seem to like the added information available and easy-to-use app (compared to the Audi charger and the horribly slow/ineffective Audi etron app).

The electrician estimates it will be $450 to install a 240 volt outlet. Add that plus the $799 for the charger (I got the plug-in charger so I can always move it to a different house) and we're looking at about $1250. However, I hope to get $200 back from this pilot program (possibly the full $400 if I remain for 12 months).

I contacted PGE's submetering unit and they said they only have 100 slots for Net Energy Metering users (i.e., solar panel system owners) but they have 80 slots left. So I should easily get in. I may update this thread if anyone is interested once it's all installed and I have some numbers to report in.
 
Just wanted to update that my Chargepoint station is set up. It's costing me about $0.98/night to fully charge my etron at PGE's EV-B rate during off-peak hours (after 11 pm), per the Chargepoint app. If it's only $1/day then I may just stay in the pilot for the full 12 months to get the second $200 incentive.
 
Im gonna get a new e-tron 2017 soon and want to setup my garage appropriately.

Could someone confirm (im in canada), that I need a 240V outlet, NEMA 6-50P on a 20amp breaker ?

The plug would be this:
https://hotkilns.com/sites/default/file ... 50-300.jpg

(one pin longer than the other one ?)

also, Im getting mixed info as to charging the car with E-trOn connect without the nav Package. Is it possible or not ?
Is it possible to connect the car to a wireless home network even without the Nav Package ? (I will have e-tron 2017 progressiv with sensors only)

thanks
Patrick
 
Nouknitouk":3s7afe9d said:
Im gonna get a new e-tron 2017 soon and want to setup my garage appropriately.

Could someone confirm (im in canada), that I need a 240V outlet, NEMA 6-50P on a 20amp breaker ?

The plug would be this:
https://hotkilns.com/sites/default/file ... 50-300.jpg

(one pin longer than the other one ?)

also, Im getting mixed info as to charging the car with E-trOn connect without the nav Package. Is it possible or not ?
Is it possible to connect the car to a wireless home network even without the Nav Package ? (I will have e-tron 2017 progressiv with sensors only)

thanks
Patrick

I put in a 40A breaker for future needs. 30A would work, 20A might be pushing it? I'm too lazy to do the math.

Not much price difference, I'd get a bigger breaker and wiring.
 
Yes, the 6-50 is the one. 6-50R is the receptacle, 6-50P is the plug that comes with the E-tron charger.
30 or 40 amp breakers are fine and only a couple of bucks more, just don't go higher than the wire capacity.

Our car does not have the nav package, but from what I've read, in Canada all it offers related to charging is the ability to set up delay timers. The Connect part is via cell signal, and Audi doesn't seem to have that set up in Canada. I'm not aware of any wireless capabilities yet, although it would be very cool if that was a feature someday!
 
rfortson":1one032w said:
I put in a 40A breaker for future needs. 30A would work, 20A might be pushing it? I'm too lazy to do the math.

Not much price difference, I'd get a bigger breaker and wiring.
The charger pulls 16A @ 240V.
I put in a 20A double pole breaker for less than $10 (not a GFIC.... :| ) , used up some 12-2 w/gnd wire I had laying around (taped the white leads with red tape on each end), and then installed a wall mounted receptacle... Home Depot Link for less than $15.

So all told, my spend was less than $30. Not future proofed though.
 
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